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Post by casper171072 on May 18, 2018 16:11:46 GMT
I want to lower the car on the front as it currently sits a bit too high. I know there is adjustment at the rear of the torsion bar but I think I need more than the adjustment will allow. I am told that one of the splines is equal to about 1.5 inches which I a good starting point and probably would be about right. I'm quite useful with a spanner so want to have ago myself but a step by step guide would be useful,partly so i can do the job as swiftly as possible and party so I don't damage myself with the tension of the bar. I have never messed with torsion bars before so I do feel its a bit intimidating.
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Post by grommitt on May 20, 2018 8:20:56 GMT
Adjusting the torsion bar is more complex than just turning the adjusting screw. You need to take the load off first by undoing the lower wishbone. Do you have a workshop manual - procedure is in there. I would doubt if you would need to move round a spline unless this has been messed with. Is it a Mk1? These have a higher ride height and if you lower to Mk11 ride height you will need to add the Mk11 Mk111 spacers to the rear springs as well. Cheers G
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Post by canuck on May 20, 2018 19:25:57 GMT
I want to lower the car on the front as it currently sits a bit too high. I know there is adjustment at the rear of the torsion bar but I think I need more than the adjustment will allow. I am told that one of the splines is equal to about 1.5 inches which I a good starting point and probably would be about right. I'm quite useful with a spanner so want to have ago myself but a step by step guide would be useful,partly so i can do the job as swiftly as possible and party so I don't damage myself with the tension of the bar. I have never messed with torsion bars before so I do feel its a bit intimidating.
Yes this is a fun project. You are correct that a single spline is a good start. This is how I went about lowering my Mk 1 car. May be a bit of a ramble so grab a beer and a comfy chair.
This is quite straight forward; however one needs to pay attention and be careful, very careful. Clean the inner pivot and torsion bar joint thoroughly and mark the place/alignment of the splines on the rear lower arm and torsion bar. I used a Sharpie pen. This will allow you to remember where the starting torsion bar setting was, when you come to rotate the one spline.
Jack the car up high enough and support the four corners on jack stands, on a flat solid surface. You need to jack it high enough to allow for the height of the floor jack and the full extension of the front suspension once the energy is released from the torsion bar. Reference this exploded view from the IPL. (click to enlarge)
Once jacked up, remove the split pin, and castellated nut and split the ball joint. This will allow the relatively easy rotation/pivot of the upper trunnion from the upper pivot pin #11.
Open the lock tab, #16 and undo the nut # 15 of the upper pivot pin, remove the washer #14 and rear bush #13 from the trunnion.
Remove the nut and bolt for the tie/stay rod #58, 59, 60. Remove the tie rod fork #34 at the lower front arm. Remove the front only inner and outer pivot nuts, #32 and 23 respectively.
Place the jack under the outer lower trunnion and jack the suspension just enough to free the damper arm #1, from the rubber stop #61. You can now carefully pivot the upper trunnion away from the upper trunnion pin. Carefully lower the jack allowing the suspension to drop. Cautionary note below!
Note of caution: The swivel pin will have the full weight of the brakes, hub etc. so have someone hold this in line/vertcal as you lower it, or wire it to the car somehow. The fear here is the swivel pin rotating outwards and putting a load on the flexible brake line, causing damage to this line and perhaps yourself. Neither event being particularly desirable so pay attention. Once the load/energy is released from the torsion bar you can now remove the lower front arm nuts #23 and #32 #20 & #30 respectively.
continued ...........................
B
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Post by canuck on May 20, 2018 19:35:39 GMT
So ...................
At the rear of the torsion bar remove the retainer bolt, #46, 49, 48.
Now you will now be able to move the complete torsion bar with (The lower arm #19 attached and #42 at the rear) aft from the bushes in the lower inner pivot #25. Don’t adjust any height or the settings yet. The #30, 29, 33, 32 will remain with the torsion bar/arm joint. Now with the torsion bar free using a hammer, lightly tap the lower arm, #19 from the torsion bar #41 at the splines. Rotate the spline (reference your original marks)and re insert it into the rear arm.
You are done. As the manual says the reassembly is the reverse of the disassembly. I will note I did re install the rear torsion bar retainer bolt #86 prior to re assembling the suspension and re loading the torsion bar.
This may read as easy but one needs to be careful as there is a lot of energy stored in this torsion bar.
I lucked out and the height remained the same on both sides after rotating the one spline and no adjustment at the rear of the torsion was needed. Of course lowering blocks and longer U bolts were needed at the rear springs. The workshop manual has additional information that you may want to read before tackling this.
Have fun
Bruce
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Post by casper171072 on May 20, 2018 20:09:48 GMT
I’ve been off forum for a while with a more pressing Riley distaster which maybe another forum post if I don’t get it sorted but that another story. Thanks for all the info I will have a go I think. In answer to one of the posts, mine is a mark 1 car so I understood they did sit higher but I also wonder if mine has been messed with as it sits to high on the front compared with the rear. Of course the rear could have sagged but it rides well just doesn’t quite look right to me and you know how it is when something bugs you it will never stop bugging you 😂
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Post by casper171072 on May 21, 2018 14:12:47 GMT
Spoke to a friend yesterday about this and he then spoke with his friend who owns a Moggie Minor. He has done the same thing the only difference in his method was that he removed the brake drum and back plate with the brakes and hung it. presumably to remove the weight and possibility of damaging the brake hose as has been suggested. On separating the front of the lower arm from the rear (once the lower arm has been lowered to take the strain out of the torsion bar of course) he then knocked the rear section of the lower arm backwards off the splines but leaving it on the bar and re positioning it one spline higher (for lower ride). i presume he would have marked it's position on the spline first before removing it. Same job he just didn't remove the whole torsion bar.
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Post by noddy on May 21, 2018 14:26:21 GMT
Talking of Moggie Minors ... apparently you can fit their torsion bars onto our cars as an upgrade - don't know anyone who's tried it though!
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Post by canuck on May 22, 2018 12:30:34 GMT
He has done the same thing the only difference in his method was that he removed the brake drum and back plate with the brakes and hung it. presumably to remove the weight and possibility of damaging the brake hose as has been suggested. On separating the front of the lower arm from the rear (once the lower arm has been lowered to take the strain out of the torsion bar of course) he then knocked the rear section of the lower arm backwards off the splines but leaving it on the bar and re positioning it one spline higher (for lower ride). i presume he would have marked it's position on the spline first before removing it. Same job he just didn't remove the whole torsion bar.
Interesting approach, and FWIW I did consider working from the rear end as it does not require any 'real' disassembly at the front end. Not a lot of room to work at the rear end, and took the opportunity to renew front suspension bushes and spaced out the lower pivot, (camber ) thanks Roger so the front end was my logical point of attack.
One can, "removed the brake drum and back plate with the brakes and hung it" however keep in mind that the hub will need use of a puller to remove it. And then there is the 'might as wells' of bearings, seals etc. Full disclosure just years before when I first got George, I needed to remove all this front end hub, brake for re furbish, add a anti roll bar etc. so it is currently quite clean and integral so I chose to leave it assembled.
Your call on the front or rear let us know how you make out.
Bruce
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Post by canuck on May 24, 2018 12:17:19 GMT
A note;
If you do decide to remove the hub. brakes etc. bear in mind that the LH hub has that dreaded 'wonky' thread to it. That being it is a LH thread so, 'righty is now loosey' and 'lefty is now tighty' versus the norm 'righty/tighty' and 'lefty loosey'
B
I reviewed my notes on this. It helps enormously to put an axle stands under the rear shackle of the rear springs. This in effect lengthens the lever and makes raising the front end off of the damper stops much easier when jacking up the front suspension at removal/re assembly.
B
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Post by casper171072 on Jun 7, 2018 20:26:57 GMT
Been a while again since I’ve been on forum but have been working on the car. Just a quick thanks to you all for your help. The hardest part was stripping the old suspension even finding the nuts and bolts under all the crud wasn’t easy and then stripping the lower arm that had welded itself to the torsion bar! Once it was all apart I’ve ended up replacing all the bushes with polys, seemed prudent after all the effort of getting it apart. Then cleaning and repainting all the bits. I’m building everything back up with new bolts and cleaned the splines with a wire brush on the drill and the slide together like a glove now. With a smeer of copper grease it will all come apart again on cue if I need to adjust it again.
It’s nearly back together now but the poly bushes for the tie bar are considerably thick than the ones that came off so that part won’t go back together as they stand so will either use the originals or possibly trim down the polys a little then back on its feet to see if she sits a little better. Thanks again though
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Post by canuck on Jun 9, 2018 10:55:52 GMT
The hardest part was stripping the old suspension even finding the nuts and bolts under all the crud wasn’t easy and then stripping the lower arm that had welded itself to the torsion bar! Once it was all apart I’ve ended up replacing all the bushes with polys, seemed prudent after all the effort of getting it apart. Then cleaning and repainting all the bits. I’m building everything back up with new bolts and cleaned the splines with a wire brush on the drill and the slide together like a glove now. With a smeer of copper grease it will all come apart again on cue if I need to adjust it again. It’s nearly back together now but the poly bushes for the tie bar are considerably thick than the ones that came off so that part won’t go back together as they stand so will either use the originals or possibly trim down the polys a little then back on its feet to see if she sits a little better. Thanks again though
Good to read you are making progress. Yes these old cars when neglected can offer resistance at disassembly.
You are right once everything cleaned up & painted the re assembly is a joy. Don't neglect to replace the rubber seals at the trunnions, and at upper and the lower swivel pin.
I did replace the inner bush with Poly but left the others, damper/top swivel and stay bar as rubber, new of course. There was a discussion some while back, (have a read at the below thread)
rileymotorclub.proboards.com/thread/164/renovating-suspension
explaining the need to cut the Poly bush of the tie bar to install them. Sort of defeats the purpose hence staying with the rubber. FWIW installing the rubber is tough enough, and fitting that tiny split pin to the castellated nut is a bugger of a job!
I have installed a ARB and maintained the rubber bush in it as well.
salut
Bruce
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Post by casper171072 on Jun 10, 2018 7:07:36 GMT
Well its back together. I didn't cut the poly bush for the stay bar in the end, went with the original rubber which I took off, as they seemed fine. Got the car back on its feet and it looked like a ledslead!, would never have got it of the hump in my driveway so back up it went and back to bits. TWICE whilst I tried to get the ride height something right :-). This is despite marking of the torsion bars as I took them off. But its all good now and it looks so much better. Only problem now is that I disturbed a perished steering gator so lost all the oil there, so it will have to go back up when I get a steering gator. The joys of old cars eh?
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Post by canuck on Jun 11, 2018 14:20:51 GMT
Hello Casper. Nice to read a success story. Bravo!
A tip; when you go to remove the steering tie rod end to replace the damaged steering rack gaiter measure and note the length of thread engagement on the length of the tie rod. Make a mark etc. As a double check count the screw turns of the end as well. Makes putting everything back together simple and not require a wheel alignment.
Oil the rack through the end of the gaiter, (simple pump oil can) before closing it with the tie wraps. Getting oil in the rack at the 'proper' nipple is messy and borders on impossible.
Bruce
Would you post a photo of the new height? with measurements from hub center to chrome strip on front wing?
Thanks
B
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Post by casper171072 on Jun 11, 2018 20:41:22 GMT
Thanks for the advice about getting the oil in the rack. It did look tight wear the nipple is. I have taken the Nicole off and thoroughly cleaned it and I have a large old medical syringe that has been so useful in the past and got a rubber tube that fits over the nipped but your method sounds easier. I will sort a pic out and measure the height though I suspect I now have it lower than most people would have it I just like the look of it now
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Post by casper171072 on Jun 14, 2018 7:41:28 GMT
Sorry for the late reply about thrifty I have just got the car back on the road and given it chance to settle. The height from hub centre to chrome strip (though I haven’t got it on my car but I have used the wing waist line where the strip once was) is 46 cm though as you can see from the photo my car is probably a little lower than even the mk2/3 cars but it’s the look I am going for as you can see
Sorry couldn’t add a photo couldn’t work out how to do it
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